{"id":723,"date":"0200-05-05T17:05:28","date_gmt":"1901-12-13T20:45:52","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/doctorsoroush.com\/english\/?p=723"},"modified":"2012-10-03T17:06:28","modified_gmt":"2012-10-04T00:06:28","slug":"dialogue-of-cultures-instead-of-dialogue-of-civilizations","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/dialogue-of-cultures-instead-of-dialogue-of-civilizations\/","title":{"rendered":"Dialogue of Cultures instead of Dialogue of Civilizations"},"content":{"rendered":"

Interview with Dr Abdulkarim Soroush by Hamideh Safamanesh<\/p>\n

For the Iranian Students News Agency
\n<\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

\u201cWhen Mr Khatami proposed the idea of the dialogue of civilizations, it was a kind of reaction to the idea of the clash of civilizations.\u00a0 The clash of civilizations was first mentioned by Bernard Lewis, a professor at Princeton University.\u00a0 But he only suggested it as an idea and did not really flesh it out.\u00a0 Later, Mr Huntington, who is a professor at Harvard University, pursued it and lent it political and even military dimensions.\u00a0 He wrote an article on the subject and expanded on his theory in a book.\u00a0 But the clash of civilizations attracted a great deal of attention in the US and in many European countries.\u00a0 Mr Khatami suggested his own theory as a response to and as a way of countering that theory, and he replaced the clash with dialogue.\u00a0 The Westerners took the idea of the clash of civilizations seriously and a number of Foreign Ministries devoted time to it.\u00a0 I even recall that, several years ago, the German Foreign Ministry organized a big seminar to discuss the theory which of course never actually materialized!\u00a0 They wanted to know how serious the possibility of such a clash was so that they could reassess their foreign policy on that basis!\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

These were a part of Dr Abdulkarim Soroush\u2019s remarks in an interview with the Dialogue of Civilizations Service of the Iranian Students News Agency (ISNA).\u00a0 In the interview, which revolved around the idea of \u2018dialogue of civilizations\u2019, he suggested that a \u2018dialogue of cultures\u2019 would be more practicable and more comprehensive.<\/span><\/p>\n

West has not taken the theory of dialogue as seriously as the clash of civilizations<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said: \u201cIt seems that the West has not taken the theory of the dialogue of civilizations as seriously as the clash of civilizations and the question of a clash is still more important to them, especially after the events of 11 September, when the subject became more serious and attracted more attention.\u00a0 It even found its way into the minds of the general public in the West.\u00a0 It was as if a clash \u2013 and a bloody clash at that \u2013 was bound to occur sooner or later between civilizations and, especially, between the Islamic civilization and the West.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

It would be better to speak of a dialogue of cultures<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said:\u00a0 \u201cI was wondering to myself why we should speak about a dialogue of civilizations and not about a dialogue of cultures?\u00a0 The terms \u2018civilization\u2019 and \u2018culture\u2019 have particular meanings in modern times.\u00a0 The same people who coined the term \u2018civilization\u2019 have also used the term \u2018culture\u2019.\u00a0 Neither of these was invented by our thinkers and philosophers.\u00a0 In Europe, in particular, historians coined the terms \u2018culture\u2019 and \u2018civilization\u2019 to explain a number of historical developments and phenomena, and they were used extensively thereafter.\u00a0 We\u2019ve correctly translated the two terms into their Persian equivalents but we should bear in mind that these two expressions are not very long-standing for us and in our tradition.\u00a0 So, we should use them in the same sense as they are currently being used in their birthplace.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cThe main point I\u2019m trying to make is that it would have been better and it would be better to speak of \u2018dialogue of cultures\u2019, because civilizations are basically the static stages of cultures.\u00a0 A culture is called a culture when it is in progress;\u00a0 it is a culture when it is flowing like a river and is dynamic and fertile.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cSpengler, who discussed the subject of civilizations, firmly underlined this.\u00a0 Once a culture has been built and is approaching its final stages and when it becomes static and established, then, it\u2019s called a civilization.\u00a0 It is part and parcel of the definition of civilizations that they clash, because civilizations are identities and, as a matter of course, identities are at odds with each other and are prone to fighting and clashing. Each one of them wants to gain the upper hand, whereas cultures are not like this.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

We should speak of a dialogue of cultures instead of a dialogue of civilizations<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said: \u201cCivilizations are like kings and, in the words of our great poet Sa\u2019di, two kings don\u2019t fit in a single land; each one will try to drive the other out and to take sole charge of everything. Whereas cultures are like ordinary people and they can be friends and have dealings with each other.\u00a0 And even if they behave like enemies from time to time, their enmity is a passing thing.\u00a0 I think that, first and foremost, it would be best for us to use the term \u2018cultures\u2019 instead of \u2018civilizations\u2019; then, we could speak about\u00a0 the dialogue of religions too, because religions are a part of cultures and they enjoy cultural dynamism.\u00a0 They can constantly change and develop.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Dialogue of cultures is always in progress<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

\u201cThe dialogue of cultures has almost always been in progress and it is also in progress today. Of course, this dialogue can be made more unadulterated, friendly and instructive and taken to the point where cultures can really rush to one another\u2019s assistance and have more humane dealings with each another, so that they can forge a better future.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Most important thing left for humanity to do is to engage in dialogue<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush also said that the position of cultures in this dialogue was defined by their poverty or richness: \u201cThe richer culture has more to say, but, be that as it may, cultures can sit down together and engage in dialogue.\u00a0 And the people who hold this dialogue between cultures are the people who are involved in culture; people who have a hand in culture and are its bearers.\u00a0 This can include philosophers, historians, artists, clerics and so on, and the dialogue between clerics is effectively a dialogue between religions.\u00a0 I believe that perhaps the most important thing that\u2019s left for humanity to do is to engage in dialogue.\u00a0 There can be nothing higher and more fruitful than this.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said that the assumption behind the idea of the dialogue of cultures was that cultures, not technology or wealth or military force, have the upper hand:\u00a0 \u201cMilitary force exists and there\u2019s no denying it.\u00a0 There are countries that are stronger than us in terms of material wealth and there\u2019s no doubting it.\u00a0 But, as it happens, these aren\u2019t manifestations of cultural or civilizational beauty and they don\u2019t have the last word.\u00a0 If we speak of the universality of human rights today, we have to remember that human rights at any rate were not made\u00a0 by the Bush and Reagan Administrations.\u00a0 Human rights have been fleshed out by philosophers over several centuries and, today, they have achieved this universal supremacy, to the point where they\u2019ve turned into an international language and we all speak to each other via this language.\u00a0 It is something that all cultures and civilizations want.\u00a0 The same thing can be said of many other things and you can see that thought and culture have, in fact, been determinant on these things.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

We have to fight wasteful, intemperate, aggressive technology with culture<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush added:\u00a0 \u201cLook, Marx was a philosopher and a sociologist, as were many of his fellow travellers.\u00a0 You can see how they changed the scene in the West and created a big rival for capitalism.\u00a0 Of course, internal faults made it collapse, although the collapse has not been wholesale and total.\u00a0 What I\u2019m trying to say is that, in fact, it is cultures that should talk together and engage in dialogue. And it is in this way that many hidden things will come to the surface;\u00a0 things that are hidden under technology. A drape of this fabric has now come into being which is hiding many of the beautiful things and true riches that lie underneath and is not allowing them to display themselves.\u00a0 They are the things that need to become visible in order to prevent the excesses of technology and the like.\u201d <\/span><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said that the hand and the brain that builds and uses technology should be under the sway of culture, adding:\u00a0 \u201cIf you change it and replace it with something else, you\u2019ll obtain an altogether better result.\u00a0 You can\u2019t fight technology with technology because it would make technology grow more corpulent.\u00a0 You have to fight wasteful, intemperate and aggressive technology with culture so that you can put technology in its rightful place.\u00a0 This is why I think that now is the best time for such a thing to start;\u00a0 in fact, it\u2019s a little late.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

We have to begin intra-cultural dialogue in the world of Islam<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said:\u00a0 \u201cIn order for the idea of the dialogue of cultures to become meaningful and to prevent it from becoming a mere slogan we have to begin intra-cultural dialogue in the world of Islam itself.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

\u201cI\u2019m putting my finger on the ill and shortcoming that we\u2019re plagued with today.\u00a0 The world of Islam has different segments; i.e. Iranian Islam, Turkish Islam, Indonesian Islam, Arab Islam, etc.\u00a0 Unfortunately, these different segments are quite uninformed about each another.\u00a0 When I go to Turkey, I see that they know little about developments in Iran, Islamic Iran\u2019s culture and Iran\u2019s Islam.\u00a0 I come to Iran and I see that we Iranians don\u2019t know much about developments in Turkish culture.\u00a0 Likewise with Indonesia, the Arab world, etc.\u00a0 This inauspicious fact is worth reflecting on.\u00a0 We used to translate many more books from Arabic into Persian in the past.\u00a0 Now, we have far fewer such translations!\u00a0 A cultural separation and disjunction has come about between us and the Arab world, Indonesia, India, Turkey, etc.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

There must be many more exchanges of visits between the different parts of Islam<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said:\u00a0 \u201cI speak about the dialogue of cultures and I consider it very necessary, but it has to said that, before we begin our dialogue with, for example, Christianity or the West, we have to introduce it into our own culture.\u00a0 There must be many more exchanges of visits between the different parts of Islam.\u00a0 The erudite must be able to travel freely between these regions.\u00a0 A far greater number of seminars ought to be held between the different parts of Islam.\u00a0 I was visiting Morocco.\u00a0 Even when I was speaking to some of the professors there, I could see that their knowledge of Shi\u2019ism and Shi\u2019is is very simplistic and crude!\u00a0 It\u2019s surprising, because these are all parts of the world of Islam.\u00a0 A professor should be much more sensitive to issues of this kind than an ordinary member of the public.\u00a0 But linguistic disjunctions and fissures that have political roots have made us thoroughly uninformed about one another.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Unity is a product of cultural contact and dialogue<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said that, if unity was to be attained, it would occur through cultural contact and dialogue:\u00a0 \u201cPoliticians should play the most minimal and faintest role here.\u00a0 The minute the issue is tainted with politics, a thousand and one ulterior motives enter in and distort and alter everything.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush reiterated that, first, he proposed that we speak of the dialogue of cultures and, second, that we get the dialogue of cultures going among us Muslims, and he added:\u00a0 \u201cI\u2019m in favour of dialogue between us and Christians and, of course, this dialogue has been in progress.\u00a0 In Iran, too, a number of my friends and I have embarked on this task.\u00a0 But, on occasion, politics has meddled in, making it less fruitful, as I suggested earlier.\u00a0 I propose that we should also have dialogue between Muslims and Jews, because, as it happens, Judaism has many more affinities with Islam and, as you know, many Western historians and religious theorists frequently make the point that Islam was a kind of reform of Judaism.\u00a0 I may not raise this point as a Muslim, but let\u2019s not forget that, as a matter of fact, many aspects of Judaism also apply in Islam.\u00a0 Jews have a jurisprudence-oriented mind, as do Muslims.\u00a0 But Christians don\u2019t have this mentality.\u00a0 As Muslims and the inhabitants of Islamic culture, we tremble when we see Christianity\u2019s fate in the secular world and in secular civilization.\u00a0 We try to make use of Christianity\u2019s experience – in a positive and negative sense \u2013 so that we don\u2019t re-experience their misfortunes and avoid going down the same path as they did in their encounter with modern civilization, and so that we make decisions that are in our interests and in the interests of our religiosity.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

A dialogue of civilizations is like a dialogue of armies!<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said:\u00a0 \u201cIf I were to make an analogy, I\u2019d say that speaking about the dialogue of civilizations is like speaking about the dialogue of armies!\u00a0 Armies are made to fight each other.\u00a0 We can\u2019t establish a dialogue between armies, but we can speak of dialogue between universities.\u00a0 We have to pay attention to the position and location of the dialogue!\u00a0 I don\u2019t want to quarrel about words but I think that when we speak about the dialogue of cultures, the meaning is much clearer, purer and more transparent than if we speak of the dialogue of civilizations.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Identities always hit their heads against each other until one of them breaks<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said: \u201cCivilizations are hard casings that are drawn over cultures.\u00a0 They are ready for war and for driving out other civilizations and gaining the upper hand.\u00a0 This is because civilizations are identities and identities always hit their heads against each other until one of the heads eventually breaks and is eliminated.\u00a0 The Western world and Western civilization has, over the past 150 years, essentially been the producer of theories of war;\u00a0 from Marx, who spoke of class war and described it as the engine of history, onwards to Mr Huntington, today, who speaks of the war of civilizations.\u00a0 And when the question of nationalities and nationalism was raised, it was always a question of war.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

We can cultivate culture by using the dialogue of cultures as our slogan<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said: \u201cIt would be very good for us to step outside the circle of war and not to appear on the world stage as warriors but as the bearers of culture and the cultivators of culture.\u00a0 But to do this, we have to choose a suitable banner and slogan.\u00a0 And the suitable banner is the dialogue of cultures, not the dialogue of civilizations.\u00a0 We can thereby cut through to a more correct and clearer route and forge the future in a more rational way.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Muslims have had a great deal to say to the world<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush underlined that Muslims should initiate the dialogue and said:\u00a0 \u201cIf they sit and wait for the time for dialogue to arrive, it may never arrive and it may grow too late.\u00a0 Muslims have had a great deal to say to the world.\u00a0 Now, too, if they shake themselves up a bit, they have a great deal to say and to offer.\u00a0 In fact, the language of spirituality can become a second language.\u00a0 In the West, we find that many thinkers are criticizing the preponderance of the language of rights, although this language has not become wholly universal.\u00a0 They examine the limitations of the language of rights and believe that the new culture and civilization, which uses use the language of rights as its main language, unfortunately has some shortcomings and that we must find a third category beyond rights and duties through which we can speak to each other.\u00a0 Debate about virtue and spirituality and so on has become very current. This debate can also be used by the world of Islam and Muslims.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Muslim thinkers should enter into international dialogue<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush said: \u201cMuslim thinkers should make the best possible use of the resources that they have in this respect and should enter into international dialogue.\u00a0 In the present circumstances, if we want to do good cultural work, we can find a more positive and more auspicious alternative to rights which also embraces the good aspects of rights but does not have the same limitations.\u00a0\u00a0 We have to turn it into a universal language.\u00a0 We can propose projects of this kind.\u00a0 Of course, we can step in and initiate the dialogue or organize it better and open a new way.\u00a0 Let me reiterate in this connection that we must keep politicians out of this arena otherwise this convoy will remain lame until Judgement Day.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n

Battle of ideas is the beginning of dialogue<\/span><\/strong><\/p>\n

Dr Soroush also said: \u201cIran has a great deal to do, too, in the midst of all this.\u00a0 We mustn\u2019t pursue very extravagant projects.\u00a0 We must organize dialogue amongst ourselves.\u00a0 Violent methods must be replaced by dialogue.\u00a0 As Popper said: We humans aren\u2019t animals; animals kill each other, but we kill each other\u2019s theories.\u00a0 We have to present our ideas so that they can go into battle and this is the beginning of dialogue.\u00a0 Then, we can turn to the world of Islam, Christianity and Judaism.\u201d<\/span><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Interview with Dr Abdulkarim Soroush by Hamideh Safamanesh For the Iranian Students News Agency   \u201cWhen Mr Khatami proposed the idea of the dialogue of civilizations, it was a kind of reaction to the idea of the clash of civilizations.\u00a0 The clash of civilizations was first mentioned by Bernard Lewis, a professor at Princeton University.\u00a0 […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"ngg_post_thumbnail":0},"categories":[3],"tags":[],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/723"}],"collection":[{"href":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/1"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=723"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/723\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=723"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=723"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"http:\/\/drsoroush.com\/en\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=723"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}